Owner: Queue: Pg: Htm

chatLog: cost/day(4), owner(llsl=Rex-Cronon), create(04/26/2018@12:42:46), expire(06/10/18 @ 12:42:46), public(yes), max(1200), delete(5), send(PRIVATE), data{linesNow(295), linesTotal(295)}
Total number of lines: 295
  1. T[2018-05-22T19:05:39.803173Z] Started: <212.00000, 44.00000, 109.91040>{Denby}
  2. T[19:05:48] Moved: <212.00000, 44.00000, 32.96207>{Denby}
  3. A[19:05:55] Janet Rossini: i'm not aware of any useful tools so if there are some would appreciate pointers
  4. A[19:06:03] Simon Linden: oh, and is this a normal region, not homestead? On those the % scripts run and spare time can be funky
  5. A[19:06:08] Rex Cronon: hello everybody
  6. A[19:06:11] Janet Rossini: yes normal mainland region
  7. T[19:06:17] Moved: <210.73390, 43.37096, 32.96555>{Denby}
  8. A[19:06:19] Simon Linden: ok good
  9. A[19:06:32] Janet Rossini: are we still sharing servers with other regions? does their script use count on the stats i see? in terms of script time avail?
  10. A[19:07:10] Simon Linden: Yes there are more than one region running on a given piece of server hardware
  11. A[19:07:22] Simon Linden: but their script usage shouldn't affect your numbers
  12. A[19:07:43] Janet Rossini: so each region gets a standard slice of script time?
  13. A[19:08:01] Janet Rossini: what can be said about how long it takes to process a script that doesn't want time ...
  14. A[19:08:16] Simon Linden: you can get situations where the whole server performs poorly if you get an unlucky combination of busy regions together
  15. A[19:08:17] Janet Rossini: does 5000 seem like too many, with most idle or waiting for a chat etc?
  16. A[19:08:25] animats Resident: Someone here want to go visit her sim and help her out?
  17. A[19:08:34] Simon Linden: if you do a restart, that typically moves you to another server and it changes
  18. A[19:08:48] Janet Rossini: that could be worth asking for j ust to see what happens
  19. A[19:08:53] Simon Linden: 5000 is a lot but not crazy-big
  20. A[19:09:05] Janet Rossini: there's no way to get top scripts or the like in mainland?
  21. A[19:09:21] Rex Cronon: 5k running scripts in a sim is a lot?
  22. A[19:09:22] Simon Linden: ctrl-shift-1 shows you the most info
  23. A[19:09:53] Janet Rossini: yes i use that and brought snapshots. which reminds me of two things ... does the HTTP change effect scripts in any way ...
  24. A[19:09:55] Simon Linden: 5000 of anything is a lot, if you have to deal with each one individually
  25. A[19:10:25] Simon Linden: also consider that "scripts run" stat - if the region is running full speed 45 fps, that's about 23 milliseconds per frame
  26. A[19:10:54] Janet Rossini: yes. as i say, most are idel
  27. A[19:11:02] Janet Rossini: idle
  28. A[19:11:16] Janet Rossini: and we stopped all the trains and elephants and moving stuff
  29. A[19:11:35] animats Resident: Can support give her a top-scripts list?
  30. A[19:11:54] Janet Rossini: i'd commit a felony for the estate tools :)
  31. A[19:11:58] Rex Cronon: but there r people with thousands running scripts in their attachments...
  32. A[19:12:54] Simon Linden: so scanning and possibly running 5000 scripts in the time used for scripts is a fair amount of work ... that's all I'm saying. A lot depends on what the scripts are doing too
  33. A[19:13:01] Janet Rossini: anything that would help us triage would be useful
  34. A[19:13:13] Janet Rossini: most of them will be idle waiting for commands on weird channels ...
  35. A[19:13:19] Janet Rossini: or one-time things like texture animators
  36. A[19:13:28] Janet Rossini: except for the trains (which we halted)
  37. A[19:13:52] Janet Rossini: but every script gets assessed for wanting to go every time around, right?
  38. A[19:13:58] Simon Linden: right, or waiting for a touch or collision or whatever event
  39. A[19:14:07] Janet Rossini: right
  40. A[19:14:36] Qie Niangao: I have an alt staring at the sim stats there now... for an idle sim, there's kind of a lot of Physics going on... like about 3ms per frame. Not horrid, but with everything else it does cap Script time to 15-16 msec
  41. A[19:14:37] Simon Linden: Right, it tries every frame to check each and every running script, and it can be in a few simple states
  42. A[19:14:46] Simon Linden: first, it might be totally idle waiting for an event
  43. A[19:15:09] Janet Rossini: offhand i'm not even sure how to search and find all the scripted objects to stop them, they're all over :)
  44. A[19:15:15] Simon Linden: it must update timers and see if that causes an event
  45. A[19:15:30] Simon Linden: or it's in the middle of an event already, running the program
  46. A[19:15:44] Simon Linden: in that case, it gets a short slice of time to run
  47. A[19:15:53] Qie Niangao: World / Show / Beacons / Scripted is a start
  48. A[19:16:05] Janet Rossini: qie i was seeing 2ms physics last night
  49. A[19:16:14] Janet Rossini: yes all 1300 of them :)
  50. A[19:16:21] Janet Rossini: but it may come to that
  51. A[19:16:48] Rex Cronon: there r scripted tools that allow u to find running scripts
  52. A[19:16:59] Janet Rossini: well i don't want to take all the time but ping me with ideas or tools etc please
  53. A[19:17:02] Qie Niangao: yeah, it's not all due to physics; even if that came down to 0 and scripts got the more common 18ms, there still wouldn't be enough time for all the scripts to run
  54. A[19:17:14] Rex Cronon: i mean objects with running scripts in them
  55. A[19:17:17] Janet Rossini: physics and scripts share time tho?
  56. A[19:17:48] Janet Rossini: i can script necessary tools too but idk of much in the library that's helpful
  57. A[19:17:54] animats Resident: Yes, unfortunately. It's single thread.
  58. A[19:17:55] Simon Linden: the 23 millisecond time for a frame gets split up with all the work running the world
  59. A[19:18:17] Simon Linden: so yes, physics gets time, and that one is tough to limit compared to scripts
  60. A[19:18:22] Elettra Beardmore: hallo to all
  61. A[19:18:23] Janet Rossini: anyway we can go to next question and please folks IM me with ideas.
  62. A[19:18:33] Rex Cronon: ehllo elettra
  63. A[19:18:36] Rex Cronon: hello*
  64. A[19:18:53] Simon Linden: it has to figure out all the updates to send to everyone ... checking individually about where your camera is, draw distance, etc
  65. A[19:19:05] animats Resident: The sailors are unhappy with the retransmission time fix.
  66. A[19:19:23] Simon Linden: actually send and receive all the network traffic and other jobs
  67. A[19:19:52] Simon Linden: so yes scripts are sharing time with a lot of other things
  68. A[19:19:58] Janet Rossini: oh i should say we don't think we've changed anything significant. but one never does :)
  69. T[19:20:10] Moved: <210.15340, 44.40704, 32.96555>{Denby}
  70. T[19:20:14] Moved: <210.69750, 44.40005, 32.96555>{Denby}
  71. A[19:20:23] Simon Linden: we say that a lot too ... or at least "we didn't change anything that should have caused that problem"
  72. A[19:20:40] Rex Cronon: u just need a few weird shaped colliding all the time and suddenly lag goes up
  73. T[19:20:56] Moved: <211.03960, 43.17371, 32.96555>{Denby}
  74. A[19:21:07] Janet Rossini: yes all programmers should have a tattoo of that :)
  75. A[19:21:15] Kennylex Luckless: Is there any good tool we users can use to identify what may cause lag in a sim?
  76. A[19:21:27] Lou Netizen: /me hides he "It works on my machine" tattoo
  77. A[19:21:39] Simon Linden: the best available info is what you see with ctrl-shift-1, that stats
  78. A[19:21:48] Kennylex Luckless: We have problems in Natoma with lag that often is very hard to identify.
  79. A[19:22:08] Rex Cronon: u need to first stop rezzers
  80. A[19:22:19] Simon Linden: it's often a puzzle to figure out what's doing what in SL :P
  81. A[19:22:29] Rex Cronon: then either stop of push out of sim all physical objects
  82. A[19:22:45] Janet Rossini: yes. we had the bird flocks etc turned off as well
  83. A[19:22:51] Janet Rossini: and the deer who run around
  84. A[19:22:58] Kennylex Luckless: We even try to blame Ebbe for the lag, but that did not help :)
  85. A[19:23:15] animats Resident: It took two months for support to find out the cause of a lag problem in Vallone, where very little was happening. Some landlord had a "land board" that was scanning for visitors, inefficiently..
  86. A[19:23:28] Simon Linden: yeah Kenny I don't think it would go well if I tried that either
  87. A[19:23:31] Rex Cronon: than try and find all objects with a huge land impact
  88. A[19:24:37] Rex Cronon: scan all sim visitors for how many scripts they have in their attachments and how much memory they r using
  89. A[19:25:15] Kennylex Luckless: The problem is that Natoma once was copied to the Beta grid, it was an exact copy, but there was no lag in the Beta ver of Natoma.
  90. A[19:25:23] Simon Linden: that's certainly one way things will change and get laggy ... each AV adds more work to the server and your viewer
  91. A[19:25:41] Kennylex Luckless: So it may not be the prims or script in Natoma but something eles.
  92. A[19:25:46] Kennylex Luckless: else
  93. A[19:25:55] Janet Rossini: it's happening with just us in the region. yes i'm familiar with the impact of avatars, i'm security person at NCI
  94. A[19:26:01] Simon Linden: Right Kennylex - often it's the AVs and region together making problems
  95. A[19:26:02] Janet Rossini: so we see 20 and 30 people much of the day
  96. A[19:26:22] Jenna Felton: could be interesting when the region could keep statistics about what LSL function was called and how often. So you could find out if ancient AOs were in use or there are HTTP requests going permanently or alike
  97. A[19:26:23] Simon Linden: that's a fair amount of traffic, Janet
  98. A[19:26:34] Janet Rossini: yes NCI is a newbie center so quite busy
  99. A[19:26:44] Rex Cronon: ask them to come in naked:)
  100. A[19:26:53] Janet Rossini: oddly we have a rule against that :)
  101. A[19:26:58] Janet Rossini: being g rated and all
  102. A[19:27:13] Simon Linden: it's possible to do that, Jenna, with a special test that takes time to set up. It also runs really slow with all the extra tracking work
  103. A[19:27:26] Jenna Felton: ah, ok
  104. A[19:27:38] Janet Rossini: is there a request we could make to support to help us sort things?
  105. A[19:27:43] Janet Rossini: if it ocmes to that?
  106. A[19:27:50] animats Resident: That's important. Most newbies give up quickly on SL. So fixing this problem will help with customer retention. Help her.
  107. A[19:28:03] Janet Rossini: no no nci is fine this is my region that's faltering
  108. A[19:28:11] Janet Rossini: much as i'd love to have help
  109. A[19:28:11] animats Resident: OK.
  110. A[19:28:18] Janet Rossini: i'm pretty sure if i had god power that would help
  111. A[19:28:31] Janet Rossini: so if you could put a word in ...
  112. A[19:28:33] Simon Linden: but looking at this from a more general level, I totally believe it would be nice if we all could tell what was slowing things down easier
  113. A[19:28:37] Rex Cronon: usually lindens r good at finding problems objects in a sim:)
  114. A[19:28:54] Janet Rossini: is there no way to enable estate tools, top scripts etc in mainland?
  115. A[19:28:59] Simon Linden: that goes for both the viewer and regions
  116. A[19:29:56] Simon Linden: I'm guessing the mainland tools are all in an odd state for privacy reasons - not letting others poke into what you have on your parcel
  117. A[19:30:13] Janet Rossini: srsly tho if there are other questions do jump in
  118. A[19:30:23] Janet Rossini: yes i imagine that's the thinking, simon
  119. O[19:30:34] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Timecheck : User Group is half over
  120. A[19:30:42] Nalates Urriah: What is happening with EEP?
  121. T[19:30:59] Moved: <210.64340, 43.15625, 32.96555>{Denby}
  122. A[19:31:20] Lou Netizen: well, I had a brief update on the outbound HTTP request issues we ran into were it appeared certain server IPs couldn't reach particular external resources. We believe the issues we encountered were almost certainly at Amazon AWS and not within the LL network.
  123. A[19:31:45] Janet Rossini: :)
  124. A[19:32:12] Lou Netizen: When we were able to identify an IP experiencing the problem, sims on that IP were able to access resources at other providers normally.
  125. A[19:32:13] Simon Linden: and I didn't answer - yes Jenna please file a support ticket about the performance being poor there. I don't know if you will actually get help, because the staff has to rank the crisis and panic levels all the time and that's a tough one to figure out
  126. A[19:33:05] animats Resident: Re HTTP requests: what HTTP error code?
  127. A[19:33:09] Lou Netizen: 499
  128. A[19:34:06] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
  129. A[19:34:07] Rex Cronon: afk
  130. A[19:34:07] animats Resident: 499 is SL side.
  131. A[19:34:27] animats Resident: Sim out of resources or hit rate limit.
  132. A[19:34:58] Lou Netizen: yep, which is why I thought it might be an SL issue. And maybe it is. But it's not rate limiting, and the error only occurred on particular sims with script attempting to access AWS resources.
  133. A[19:35:17] Lou Netizen: same sim, same IP, differnet external resources…all fine
  134. A[19:35:22] Simon Linden: yes, that error code comes from Linden servers, where basically something is hosed and it can't proceed
  135. A[19:35:37] animats Resident: Docs also say that no response in 60 secs gets a 499. Or an SSL error.
  136. A[19:35:47] Lou Netizen: yeah, these 499s were immediate
  137. A[19:35:48] Simon Linden: it may be due to some external problem, however
  138. A[19:36:04] Janet Rossini: so it could mean AWS said something they couldn't understand
  139. A[19:36:12] Lou Netizen: my working theory is some security appliance at Amazon is a little overactive
  140. A[19:36:21] Janet Rossini: could it be related to the newish requirements for HTTPS to work?
  141. A[19:36:44] Lou Netizen: Not so far as we can determine, Janet. All these tests are HTTPS.
  142. A[19:36:53] Simon Linden: sure, it could be anything in the network layers
  143. A[19:37:22] Lou Netizen: Yep, but when it only happens with AWS resoruces and not to Azure, Linode, private servers, etc…it's probably Amazon
  144. A[19:37:30] Janet Rossini: /me nods
  145. A[19:37:46] Lou Netizen: the trick was just finding IPs on the grid experiencing the problem so we could test
  146. A[19:38:00] Lou Netizen: and the problems do seem to clear eventually
  147. A[19:38:05] animats Resident: Is it your service on AWS? Do you control the other end?
  148. A[19:38:07] Lou Netizen: some IPs that experienced the problem a week ago are fine now
  149. A[19:38:19] Lou Netizen: Yes, the service where we ran into this problem is AWS.
  150. A[19:38:37] Lou Netizen: I do not personally control the other end; I set up a free micro instance for testing though.
  151. A[19:38:39] animats Resident: Can you look at logs from that end?
  152. A[19:38:57] Lou Netizen: Yeah, in the testing, Amazon's server does not log a request
  153. A[19:39:02] Lou Netizen: so it never gets there
  154. A[19:39:08] animats Resident: OK.
  155. A[19:39:22] Simon Linden: did you hit that instance via an ip address or domain name?
  156. A[19:39:28] Janet Rossini: dns thing?
  157. A[19:39:35] Lou Netizen: for the "live" service via a domain name
  158. A[19:39:42] Lou Netizen: for my test scripts, via an IP
  159. A[19:39:51] Simon Linden: ok yeah so dns has to work right on that
  160. A[19:40:02] Janet Rossini: it fails on your tests lou?
  161. A[19:40:05] Jenna Felton: can the external servers bloch access from SL like the mail providers drop the mails from SL servers as spam ignoring approach?
  162. A[19:40:06] Lou Netizen: results were consistent across both: if the live service on AWS wasn't reachable, neither was the IP
  163. A[19:40:07] animats Resident: What DNS does SL use?
  164. A[19:40:09] Jenna Felton: block*
  165. A[19:40:41] Lou Netizen: I'm sure they can, Jenna: a lot of that stuff is automated. There's a whole industry around it.
  166. A[19:40:43] Simon Linden: sure Jenna, they can put in whatever filters and blocks on network traffic that they want
  167. A[19:40:50] Janet Rossini: agree it sounds like aws but the 499 is odd
  168. A[19:41:19] Jenna Felton: when that is blocking, than you can not do anything but send the admins a note to unblock the SL address
  169. A[19:41:32] Simon Linden: I don't know, Joe. In any case, there's always so much caching going on things might be stale
  170. A[19:41:42] Lou Netizen: anyway: right now it really doesn't look like an SL problem just the 499 being a weird symptom of something upstream
  171. A[19:42:16] Lou Netizen: I have my bot looking around still collecting data, we'll see if it finds anything weird
  172. A[19:42:25] animats Resident: OK.
  173. A[19:43:56] animats Resident: Sailors report more trouble.
  174. A[19:44:03] animats Resident: Much anger on forums.
  175. A[19:44:55] Janet Rossini: hm we are experimenting with region crossing non physical objects but not running them all the time
  176. A[19:45:03] Qie Niangao: well, you know sailors, so high-strung, like golfers.
  177. A[19:45:13] Simon Linden: hmmm it would be interesting to see if those reports match up with a recent updaet
  178. A[19:45:27] Janet Rossini: they should lighten up, in the old days sailing in SL meant certain death.
  179. A[19:45:39] animats Resident: I'm not seeing worse behavior with motorcycles.
  180. A[19:46:09] Kelly Shergood: I've not heard any significant complaint increases with aircraft
  181. A[19:46:22] Simon Linden: did you notice motorcycles changing when the original update a few weeks back went out?
  182. A[19:46:41] animats Resident: No, motorcycles seemed to behave about the same.
  183. A[19:47:11] animats Resident: About one half-unsit per half hour of riding.
  184. A[19:47:31] animats Resident: How.s the real fix for half-unsits coming?
  185. A[19:47:33] Inara Pey: Speaking as those living on Blake Sea and regularly out on motor boats, sailing craft and (now) hovercraft) ... we've both felt things are a lot more predictable at sea with crossings than previously.
  186. A[19:47:56] Inara Pey: We've even dared to try wakeboarding again.... (!)
  187. A[19:48:19] Simon Linden: lol I'll bet SL can give you a wild ride doing that sometimes
  188. A[19:49:15] animats Resident: We really need the half-unsit fix. That's the one that totally destroys immersion.
  189. A[19:49:29] Simon Linden: I am getting back to that work this week, hopefully. The viewer and server really should be able to understand a crossing didn't work properly
  190. A[19:49:41] Inara Pey: You're welcome to join us, Simon - it's fun .... unless things really do go sideways. literally as well as figuratively...
  191. A[19:49:55] animats Resident: Yes. Do you log region crossing fails server side?
  192. A[19:50:26] Janet Rossini: in our crossing stuff we've seen objects disappear entirely. is that a known behavior if a handoff fails?
  193. A[19:50:48] animats Resident: I've seen that too. Object disappears and is not returned.
  194. A[19:51:02] Rex Cronon: r they temp objects?
  195. A[19:51:06] Janet Rossini: no
  196. A[19:51:10] animats Resident: No.
  197. A[19:51:17] Qie Niangao: or scripted die-at-edge?
  198. A[19:51:18] Lou Netizen: if that ever gets fixed will I have heaps of cars from 2010 land in my inventory? Because I lost a *lot* of them.
  199. A[19:51:19] Simon Linden: yes Joe but I'm adding more detailed checks and reporting about all your attachments and sending updates
  200. A[19:51:28] Janet Rossini: but they'll be at like -.99 and step further in to trigger the handoff
  201. A[19:51:57] Simon Linden: sorry Lou, there won't be any spontaneous return of classic cars
  202. A[19:52:03] Jenna Felton: can an object crossing region disappear when the leaving region errornously thinks it went off world?
  203. A[19:52:06] animats Resident: Ah, good, Simon. First step is to detect and log. Then you have something to debug with.
  204. A[19:52:06] Lou Netizen: praise be ;)
  205. A[19:52:35] animats Resident: I have seen vehicles disappear in a half-unsit by going underground.
  206. A[19:53:08] Rex Cronon: maybe they r left in the old sim?
  207. A[19:53:23] animats Resident: Their scripts stop reporting to our server, but they continue to play their motion sounds and run their wheel animations.
  208. A[19:53:47] Janet Rossini: yes i've seen that joe they even ownersay me
  209. A[19:54:00] Simon Linden: and there's often different ways things can disappear ... sometimes it's a matter of you not being able to see it in the region
  210. A[19:54:01] animats Resident: I've found them underground and pulled them up with edit.
  211. A[19:54:03] Janet Rossini: but those ones usually come back
  212. A[19:54:18] Simon Linden: or it really isn't there - it got returned, or somehow the data was lost on transfer
  213. A[19:54:41] Rex Cronon: it was put back in user inventory?
  214. A[19:54:44] Janet Rossini: we've had objects walking back and forth across the border (which by the way seems to generate lag) ...
  215. A[19:54:51] Janet Rossini: and then after hours or days, they're just gone
  216. A[19:54:52] animats Resident: Right. But always, the vehicle and passenger become separated.
  217. A[19:54:52] Simon Linden: maybe Rex
  218. A[19:55:05] Simon Linden: yes Janet, region crossings cause lag events
  219. A[19:55:16] Janet Rossini: yes :)
  220. A[19:55:27] Janet Rossini: moving a script etc must be tricky and costly
  221. A[19:56:08] animats Resident: Yes. I have an instantaneous lag meter, which reports brief lags of over 200ms. Every time a YavaPod crosses the sim boundary, it trips.
  222. A[19:56:09] Rex Cronon: if there was a lsl functions: llTurnOffScriptsOnSimCrossing :)
  223. A[19:56:40] Janet Rossini: well i'm moving under script setpos equivalent so i can't live with that :)
  224. A[19:56:48] Simon Linden: if you dig into the viewer open-source code, you'll see that on a region crossing there isn't a good, final exchange of messages between the viewer and 2 regions of "all done, you are now on region B with all your attachments and vehicle"
  225. A[19:57:11] Janet Rossini: more like bye, good luck, may ebbe be with you?
  226. A[19:57:19] Simon Linden: if they can't agree on that, something failed ... and it should log what's going on
  227. A[19:57:57] animats Resident: I've been meaning to do that. Is there a document that really describes the state machines on sim and viewer side? I've seen the message sequence for the good case.
  228. A[19:58:03] Rider Linden: I'm going to sneak out. Thank you everyone.
  229. A[19:58:10] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Rider.
  230. A[19:58:11] Janet Rossini: bye rider
  231. A[19:58:14] Simon Linden: in short Joe, no
  232. A[19:58:16] Kennylex Luckless: take care Simon
  233. A[19:58:17] Rex Cronon: maybe we shouldn't be able to just cross sims, maybe we should have something like a portal/stargate?
  234. A[19:58:30] Rex Cronon: tc rider
  235. A[19:58:31] Janet Rossini: teleport hubs
  236. T[19:59:05] Moved: <211.28500, 43.26603, 32.96555>{Denby}
  237. T[19:59:12] Moved: <210.76980, 42.52990, 32.96555>{Denby}
  238. A[19:59:17] animats Resident: I would suggest that drawing those state transition diagrams would be a good use of resources.
  239. T[19:59:21] Moved: <211.76260, 44.55703, 32.96555>{Denby}
  240. A[19:59:55] Jenna Felton: portal for objects or at least seated objects would be a cool improvement :)
  241. A[20:00:15] Simon Linden: I should be more clear, Joe ... we do have some internal documentation on how it works for teleports and region crossings. It's not publicly available, however
  242. O[20:00:34] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
  243. A[20:00:37] Rex Cronon: state sekrit lvl only. haha
  244. A[20:00:43] animats Resident: You can't fix it until you can clearly define how it is supposed to work.
  245. A[20:01:12] Janet Rossini: honestly the amazing thing is that SL works at all. it's quite a system.
  246. T[20:01:22] Moved: <212.35110, 44.27665, 32.96555>{Denby}
  247. A[20:01:37] Simon Linden: I would be interested in experimenting with region crossings where we give up trying to make them perfectly invisible, with motion prediction and all that
  248. A[20:01:43] Jenna Felton: but i think to solve region crossing problems you would need to make a region to control the vehicle on the other region while it is being transferred to that region. but that needs some revamping the SL :)
  249. T[20:01:46] Moved: <212.29230, 44.38740, 32.96555>{Denby}
  250. A[20:01:47] Simon Linden: that is more jarring

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