A[20:04:51] Simon Linden: Vir is here in case anyone wants to get into the mod-key proposal that's been on the forums
A[20:04:55] Nicolyti Resident: Hello Rex
A[20:04:59] Rex Cronon: hi inara
A[20:05:03] Rex Cronon: hi yuzuru
A[20:05:05] Lucia Nightfire: just so he knows this isn't a voice UG, heh
A[20:05:08] Rex Cronon: hi adamburp
A[20:05:16] Rex Cronon: hi nicolyti
A[20:05:25] Rex Cronon: hi simon
A[20:05:38] Simon Linden: Hi Rex
A[20:05:47] Simon Linden: So the table's open for topics or questions ....
A[20:05:54] Rex Cronon: :)
A[20:06:13] Lucia Nightfire: that disaster get fixed?\
A[20:06:50] Simon Linden: which disaster, Lucy?
A[20:07:12] Jenna Felton: hello all :) sorry for being late
A[20:07:17] Lucia Nightfire: the one you were working on last night, heh
A[20:07:39] Rex Cronon: hi jenna
A[20:07:42] Rex Cronon: :)
A[20:07:51] Kennylex Luckless: I know that it is not server related, but would it be possible to get environment maps, one standard or some you can selece through the windlight settings?
A[20:07:53] Simon Linden: not 100%, no ... this is my 4th meeting of the day so hopefully I'll get some time soon
A[20:08:13] Kennylex Luckless: select*
A[20:08:17] Simon Linden: what do you mean by "environment maps" ?
A[20:09:09] Kennylex Luckless: I think that is the tearm, a cubic tecture make up environment reflection tarher than a gradient as it is now.
A[20:09:18] Kennylex Luckless: texture*
A[20:09:42] Lucia Nightfire: cube maps was a feature that was accepted
A[20:09:53] Lucia Nightfire: no word if or when it will be looked at
A[20:10:09] Rider Linden: It is not part of EEP at this time.
A[20:10:12] Kennylex Luckless: The water use slow to load normal maps you get the ripples, so a environment map can not be worse.
A[20:10:58] Rider Linden: I think that may be separate dev effort.
A[20:11:35] Kennylex Luckless: So we but carrots we can throw to to the dev team ?
A[20:11:40] Kennylex Luckless: buy*
A[20:11:47] Lucia Nightfire: I think they prefer latte's
A[20:11:53] Nicolyti Resident: lol
A[20:11:55] Rider Linden: Scotch
A[20:12:00] Rex Cronon: or banananas:0
A[20:12:02] Simon Linden: I'm not going to put out a tip jar :P
A[20:12:07] Oz Linden: Chocolate is good too
A[20:12:08] Rider Linden: Lots and lots of scotch.
A[20:12:19] Lucia Nightfire: do they work for peanuts though?
A[20:12:19] Rider Linden: with chocolate
A[20:12:32] Nicolyti Resident: haha
A[20:12:33] Vir Linden: Scotch might be counterproductive for getting the work done, though
A[20:13:18] Heidi Hoyes: I don't want to derail the meeting at all because I'm late to the party but if someone can chat with me in IM about problems with rezzing on certain servers I would appreciate it. Perhaps the issue has been addressed in previous meetings.
A[20:13:22] Adamburp Adamczyk: /me is 1 hour from Scotland by road, so I'll courier it
A[20:13:39] Kennylex Luckless: Btw, do any Linden use the "Magellan Banana phone" as ring tone in RL?
A[20:13:53] Heidi Hoyes: or if you can point me to something I can read that would be helpful as well
A[20:13:53] Simon Linden: Heidi the usual first cure for that is contacting support and asking them to restart the region
A[20:14:05] Simon Linden: .. or a manager that has powers to do that
A[20:14:31] Heidi Hoyes: our clients do all have that capability so I was hoping to get an idea from a content provider what more I can do
A[20:14:35] Simon Linden: I have no idea what that is, Kenny
A[20:14:40] Heidi Hoyes: do not*
A[20:15:04] Simon Linden: are they getting any error message about rezzing?
A[20:15:10] Whirly Fizzle: Is it the "Unable to rez object that has caused problem on this region" error?
A[20:15:24] Heidi Hoyes: we saw a sharp increase in problems after Tuesday last week
A[20:15:52] Heidi Hoyes: there have been several I believe... sorry I'm a bit of the middle man here. Nic?
A[20:16:07] Lucia Nightfire: it helps to look at https://status.secondlifegrid.net/ for any issues too
O[20:16:13] URL Reader HUD/b91d12f1-4e0f-4752-8199-73d71fdeeee5: https://status.secondlifegrid.net/ = "<nolink>Second Life Status</nolink>"
A[20:16:46] Nicolyti Resident: that was one that was occurring on a mainland parcel. The tenant couldn't rez anything at all. Will check that status.
A[20:17:32] Whirly Fizzle: If it's that error it's usually because the region has run out of physics memory. It needs to be restarted - see https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-772
A[20:17:39] Simon Linden: If you see that error, wait a while (an hour+) before trying again
A[20:17:44] Whirly Fizzle: Usually happens when you've been terraforming a lot
A[20:18:03] Nicolyti Resident: oh.. ok. never seen it before. thank you
A[20:18:03] Simon Linden: if that still doesn't work, contact support, tell them in the ticket what's going on on and ask for a region restart
A[20:19:05] Whirly Fizzle: If you can rez a fresh cube via build tools but it behaves as if it's phantom, it's definitely that problem.
A[20:19:10] Lucia Nightfire: That error also comes from a specific series of events involving physics use/abuse too, heh
A[20:19:13] Simon Linden: right Whirly - the physics memory problem makes things very slow, including rezzing, which then gets items identified as causing problems
A[20:19:25] Rex Cronon: i usually get "Unable to rez object that has caused problem on this region" with self-replicators
A[20:19:32] Whirly Fizzle: I've never seen waiting an hour fix that btw.
A[20:22:49] Rex Cronon: .
A[20:23:11] Nicolyti Resident: I have a question, but I am not a scriptor, so bear with me.
I manage a couple breedable companies inworld, and since your HTTP Protocol change in Mid-July this year, we are having issues with birthing/making live animals. It's almost like the call is timing out during servers communicating. I was wondering if we need to add an argument or something? It is happening on random servers/sims, about 40% of the time. Could that be a physics issue also?
A[20:23:19] Jenna Felton: while there is pause, I wanted say sorry for my last disappearing. My internet connection tends to break dayly in about this time and not come back for hours. no idea what hamsters eat what cables.
A[20:23:21] Rex Cronon: something wrong with this sim? is time dilatation here normally at 0.999??
A[20:23:37] Nicolyti Resident: lol me too
A[20:23:38] Jenna Felton: (disappearing last week due my question)
A[20:23:49] Adamburp Adamczyk: my isp repalced all the hubs in my area with new ones
A[20:23:55] Adamburp Adamczyk: now i have like 17 hotspots in range
A[20:24:03] Simon Linden: That sounds like the breedables are over-loading the http system Nic
A[20:24:17] Nicolyti Resident: ooh.. ok
A[20:24:38] Jenna Felton: cool
A[20:24:52] Nicolyti Resident: how do we combat that?
A[20:24:58] Lucia Nightfire: some grandma's cat farm is consuming all HTTP in a region? heh
A[20:25:10] Simon Linden: a lot of breedables on the same region can be trouble ... we've found some of them are really chatty with their back-end system and so when you get a lot together, it's a heavy load
A[20:25:12] Whirly Fizzle: Is one of them ABC horses?
A[20:25:17] Nicolyti Resident: no
A[20:25:21] Nicolyti Resident: Stray Cats
A[20:25:25] Nicolyti Resident: we aren't a huge group
A[20:25:27] Rex Cronon: all those breedables that need to give birth take a number and form a line:)
A[20:25:40] Nicolyti Resident: I gotcha
A[20:25:50] Jonathan Yap: Are there other types of breedables in that region as well, causing more load?
A[20:26:38] Whirly Fizzle: Sounds like it may be a similar problem that happened when birthing the ABC horses. I think Rider fixed that?
A[20:27:00] Nicolyti Resident: its possible. Too varied, but I do ask, and its happening across the board, randomly, all servers
A[20:27:26] Nicolyti Resident: they get stuck halfway. never finish and break
A[20:29:23] Rex Cronon: there is a limited number of http connections that a sim can support
A[20:29:39] Lucia Nightfire: yes
A[20:29:46] Lucia Nightfire: but there is no fair usage policy
A[20:29:47] Jonathan Yap: The script should be checking for that error though
A[20:29:58] Lucia Nightfire: ie, it is not tied to land sqm like castray used to be
A[20:30:07] Lucia Nightfire: I did file a jira requesting fair usage though
A[20:30:46] Simon Linden: It's also a tough programming problem ... the animals probably have some bugs where they don't handle errors properly when they can't talk back to their own servers. Ideally they should be able to recognize there are connection problems and stop whatever they are doing, maybe resume later
O[20:30:53] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Timecheck : User Group is half over
A[20:31:24] Whirly Fizzle: Oh found the ABC horse issue. It's not very descriptive though & as far as I know it was fixed https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-134275
A[20:31:49] Heidi Hoyes: thank you Whirly that should help some
A[20:31:50] Nicolyti Resident: ooh thank you so much Whirly
A[20:31:55] Rex Cronon: like simon says. the breedables should enter something like stasis and tell owner to rezz them on a different sim
A[20:32:27] Whirly Fizzle: Basically the horses could give birth after the Http changes
A[20:32:41] Whirly Fizzle: *couldn't
A[20:32:46] Rex Cronon: zfk
A[20:32:50] Rex Cronon: AFK...............................
A[20:32:50] Rex Cronon: afk
A[20:33:35] Lucia Nightfire: unfortunately http throttling errors are in the form of script errors, so the script can't listen for those itself and the http functions are key based, not integer
A[20:33:36] Rider Linden: Yes, if I remember correctly the horses were hitting the limits and getting shut down.
A[20:34:21] Whirly Fizzle: Was that one just fixed by raising the limit a bit?
A[20:35:30] Oz Linden: No, it was fixed by making some changes in the number and timing of the requests sent by each horse, and by a server side change in how the requests were authenticated
A[20:35:43] Whirly Fizzle: Ahhh
A[20:35:50] Oz Linden: we may also have raised the limit a little, but that wasn't the key
A[20:36:13] Whirly Fizzle: So Nic's breedables may need an update?
A[20:37:23] Lucia Nightfire: I think the publicly announced duping fixes will hopefully allow for less HTTP traffic in no copy objects going further.
A[20:37:30] Nicolyti Resident: hmm ok. I will pass this info to my scriptor ..thank you
A[20:38:23] Whirly Fizzle: Maybe a good idea to file a JIRA issue? then Lindens can test your breeable & see if that is actually the problem
A[20:38:25] Simon Linden: on a different topic, did anyone have feedback on the mod key proposal as written up in https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/413191-project-animesh-feedback-thread/?page=5&tab=comments#comment-1685834
A[20:38:47] Lucia Nightfire: gonna fill up the rest of the time on that topic, huh, lol
A[20:38:58] Adamburp Adamczyk: Sorry, there is a problem
You do not have permission to view this content.
Error code: 2F173/H
A[20:39:07] Adamburp Adamczyk: get tehat error message Simon
A[20:39:08] Lucia Nightfire: imho, it is NOT an easy topic
A[20:39:16] Vir Linden: +1000
A[20:39:18] Simon Linden: no, it's a really tricky one
A[20:39:51] Vir Linden: You need to be logged in to view the forums
A[20:39:53] Whirly Fizzle: Adam, login? Though you should be able to view it when not logged in I think
A[20:39:55] Whirly Fizzle: ahh
A[20:40:16] Lucia Nightfire: Vir, do you want me to file a new jira with all the details of my "final solution" or do you want me to update the desc of the jira I have out now, which atm does not have those details
A[20:40:35] Lucia Nightfire: again, just want to say this UG is not a voice one, heh
A[20:40:45] Vir Linden: Lucia, suggest you just add it to the existing JIRA. We'll pull it in for a possible future "all the permissions things" project.
A[20:40:56] Vir Linden: Err, yes, had figured that out.
A[20:41:36] Lucia Nightfire: I added it in my latest coments
A[20:41:39] Lucia Nightfire: *comments
A[20:41:40] Vir Linden: See my most recent comment there
A[20:47:01] Simon Linden: The existing pets an such have the same problem
A[20:47:23] Vir Linden: A mechanism for controlled relinking of no-mod items
A[20:47:25] Lucia Nightfire: Vir is your proposal something that you all think can fit within the scope of Animesh's natural test process?
A[20:47:28] Rex Cronon: oh
A[20:47:36] Lucia Nightfire: prior to when it would have been released anyway?
A[20:48:24] Rex Cronon: but, if u relink u moded the linked set
A[20:48:26] Vir Linden: Lucia, I think the current proposal should be reasonable scope for animesh. It's still under discussion whether it's a viable solution, which is why discussions are ongoing here, and at content creators meeting
A[20:49:07] Simon Linden: I really want to keep them separate. Perhaps the work on them can overlap, but they are very different bits of functionality
A[20:49:09] Vir Linden: Rex - right, this is a way to give limited permission for just relinking without other types of changes. If the creator doesn't give permission, it can't be done, same as today
A[20:49:09] Rex Cronon: content creators meeting?
A[20:49:21] Lucia Nightfire: my latest proposed no-mod env changes could still be done on top of yours if needed
A[20:49:23] Simon Linden: yes it's discussed tehre
A[20:49:36] Vir Linden: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_User_Group
O[20:49:43] URL Reader HUD/b91d12f1-4e0f-4752-8199-73d71fdeeee5: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Content_Creation_User_Group = "<nolink>Content Creation User Group - Second Life Wiki</nolink>"
A[20:50:00] Lucia Nightfire: but again, I have concerns
A[20:50:10] Rex Cronon: thank u. dou have transcripts:)
A[20:50:24] Rex Cronon: do u*
A[20:50:38] Lucia Nightfire: because I think theres some misunderstanding in the spirit of what the feature was supposed to achieve
A[20:50:46] Whirly Fizzle: Rex, medhue live streams each meeting & they are on Youtube.
A[20:50:56] Rex Cronon: oh. thanks
A[20:50:58] Lucia Nightfire: it was not supposed to give users direct mod ability through the viewer
A[20:51:03] Jonathan Yap: and Inara provides a summary
A[20:51:05] Vir Linden: It's voice. Sometimes people post summaries and/or videos
A[20:51:59] Lucia Nightfire: no-mod linking was supposed to be at the creator's convenience, not the end user, mod keys used in a mod env were supposed to be at the user's convenience though
A[20:52:04] Whirly Fizzle: Rex https://www.youtube.com/user/medhue/videos
A[20:52:27] Vir Linden: Lucia - we could use more specifics on why direct link would introduce additional problems. The purpose of the feature is to serve both end users and content creators.
A[20:52:34] Whirly Fizzle: Check Inara's blog for summaries of each meeting too
A[20:52:48] Rex Cronon: thank u whirly i think i will try the videos later. right now might be too much for my connection
A[20:53:10] Jenna Felton: According the mod keys i'd like the ability to give inventory to prms when knowing the mod key for the prims, give and replace inventory and give running scripts, like it is for modify prims via llGiveInventory and llRemoteLoadScriptPin. To make updaters for objects the creator knows the key but the owner not. This way the creators could sell their creations no mod and stil offer updaters for them
A[20:53:23] Lucia Nightfire: it creates unexpected problems that the original creator may not be able to deal with, particularly, others having mod right's on teh user's objects or group owners with mod rights on deeded objects
A[20:53:31] Jenna Felton: I am not sure now if that is mentioned somewhere :)
A[20:53:34] Vir Linden: Lucia, it's really not close to your original proposal, and we should probably call it something else.
A[20:54:00] Lucia Nightfire: also, we should not be linking no-mod to mod as the permissions system is not designed to deal with that for the same reasons
A[20:54:44] Lucia Nightfire: Jenna, with may latest changes to my initial proposal, there will have to be restrictions on things liek taht
A[20:54:45] Vir Linden: Having them all be no-mod probably makes sense
A[20:55:02] Lucia Nightfire: load script pin doesn't work in a no-mod env anyway
A[20:55:23] Jenna Felton: ok
A[20:55:30] Simon Linden: if they're all no mod - what's the problem?
A[20:55:39] Lucia Nightfire: inv drop is a bigger problem/threat imho
A[20:55:49] Lucia Nightfire: because it allows ANYONE to bypass mod status
A[20:55:50] Lucia Nightfire: and
O[20:55:53] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Timecheck : User Group is almost over
A[20:56:13] Lexbot Sinister: My concern is just more and more things being made no mod, and the end user creativity being snuffed.
A[20:56:23] Rex Cronon: u could buy something no-mod, add a new child link(s), and make it look like the owner of the no-mod is the creator?
A[20:56:32] Simon Linden: The new proposal is trying to make the change and focus very limited to solve a specific problem. It doesn't allow anyone to then link whatever they want
A[20:56:40] Lucia Nightfire: even though you can give a script to an object that way and it isn't loaded in the server yet, it can be loaded on region change, region restart or take/rerez, then a script in the same prim can start it
A[20:57:33] Lucia Nightfire: my latest changes attempt to contain linkset modding within a linkset hierarchy
A[20:57:34] Vir Linden: Basically people want finer control over permissions - especially, ability to change graphics without the ability to add bad-actor scripts
A[20:57:35] Jenna Felton: someone is bugging me since years to make updaters for her objects while she wants sell them no modify and i am answering that i can not make updater that replaces inventory or scripts :) this was the reason. but i wil read the proposals. Not knew there are them
A[20:57:50] Rex Cronon: somebody could mode a linden bear and load it with griefing scripts...
A[20:57:51] Lexbot Sinister: I mean, will this be the same fate as resize and re-color scripts all over again?
A[20:58:17] Lucia Nightfire: what fate?
A[20:58:23] Jenna Felton: when not knwing the key you can not load anything with new scripts
A[20:58:36] Lucia Nightfire: their fate was met with llScaleByFactor imo or just eh release of rigged mesh
A[20:58:57] Vir Linden: In this proposal, you don't know the key. You just have a set of objects that are compatible because they have the same key.
A[20:59:11] Vir Linden: And then you can link or unlink them if you want
A[20:59:22] Lexbot Sinister: Making something no mod and loading it up with keys that only allow very exact and predicted modifications- and thus locking in the end user with even more no-mod items. Thats what happened with resizers, the plague of SL for years.
A[20:59:24] Lucia Nightfire: the biggest problem is the need for an affiliate system to work, sadly, heh
A[20:59:57] Vir Linden: It's a hard problem.
A[21:00:33] Jenna Felton: than the new scripts must go into a prim that will be linked to the product to update it and old scripts will be in the box that should be unlinked.. that restricts the way how to manage the scripts in the product to make it updateable :)
A[21:00:34] Vir Linden: We want to restrict the end user as little as necessary, while preventing abusive content from getting added to the linksets.
A[21:00:38] Qie Niangao: Lex, I agree that it's uncomfortable to encourage any form of no-mod unless ABSOLUTELY unavoidable
A[21:00:43] Lucia Nightfire: the end user isn't in the vision of the operation, they don't have to do anything special to make their objects work, they only have to interface with them when they want one to link to another
O[21:00:53] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Thank you for coming to the Server User Group
A[21:01:00] Simon Linden: well hey, look at the time ... I'm going to run away
A[21:01:04] Lucia Nightfire: lmao
A[21:01:07] Lucia Nightfire: good thinking
A[21:01:10] Lucia Nightfire: I need to as well
A[21:01:10] Jenna Felton: :)
A[21:01:12] Vir Linden: If anyone wants to continue this, see you Thursday :-)
A[21:01:14] Qie Niangao: thanks Simon
A[21:01:20] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Simon.
A[21:01:21] Lucia Nightfire: do I have to be there?
A[21:01:27] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, VIr.
A[21:01:29] Whirly Fizzle: Thanks Lindens
A[21:01:31] Rex Cronon: tc simon
A[21:01:36] Lexbot Sinister: it's in voice, blurgh
A[21:01:36] Simon Linden: Thanks everyone for coming and the good discussion ... we really do want to get this stuff right in the end
A[21:01:38] Rider Linden: Thanks everyone.
A[21:01:39] Simon Linden: See you all next time
A[21:01:51] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Rider.
A[21:01:52] Rex Cronon: tc rider
A[21:01:55] Qie Niangao: Thanks Vir, Rider, Oz, have fun all
A[21:01:56] Yuzuru Jewell: Thank you, Oz.
A[21:01:58] Jenna Felton: thank you Lindens and all for the meeting, and have a good week :) see you all other time