A[20:16:25] Simon Linden: we have dug into logs and a lot of them are showing some network issues and then the connection cut from the viewer side, i.e. no server log messages saying it's kicking them off
A[20:17:47] Nalates Urriah: I suppose without any real info all you can do it thump on the servers with a hammer....
A[20:18:19] Rex Cronon: is the sim version that people have been kicked off: 19.02.01.523959?
A[20:18:24] Simon Linden: hmmm it's also tough to get real info if someone is just calling it "crashing" I mean, that post is about FS crashing ... if it really is the FS viewer crashing, that's a FS issue (possibly in our viewer too, but we can't debug FS viewer crashes)
A[20:18:42] Simon Linden: If it's a matter of being disconnected, that's a different technical story all together
A[20:19:46] Nalates Urriah: Yeah, people are imprecise...
A[20:19:55] Rex Cronon: i also tried on sim dore on beta and wasn't logged out from there either
A[20:20:28] Simon Linden: That's good to know, Rex, thanks
A[20:20:44] Rex Cronon: maybe some viewer versions are disconnect while others viewer versions crash
A[20:20:50] Rex Cronon: :)
A[20:22:09] Lou Netizen: I had an utterly minor update to an issue I raised ages ago about particular regions being unable to access things like Amazon AWS, Azure, etc. Frequency of problems dropped off precipitously in December, and in any case we haven't been able to find any we can't attribute to outside-LL issues. Numbers were still vanishingly small: in four months of testing (over 180,000 tests), we saw it happen 15 times, nine times with Amazon, four with Azure, two with Linode. So we've stopped testing for now.
A[20:22:14] Rex Cronon: weird though. when i logged on beta with my alt i was asked to agree to new tos. maybe that had something to do with no more disconnects 4 m3?
A[20:22:32] Simon Linden: /me shrugs ... yes, there could be multiple things going on. THere's not much that can be done with that report other than realizing a FS newbie is having trouble
A[20:23:31] Simon Linden: Lou - that sounds pretty rare. Could you be down to the point where you're just seeing intermittent problems with outages?
A[20:23:39] Rex Cronon: we need to help the newbies:) no matter what viewer they r using:)
A[20:24:30] Simon Linden: I totally agree Rex, I didn't mean to brush it off. I just can't do anything with a report like that, aside from telling them to try the release LL viewer
A[20:25:33] Rex Cronon: i understand simon
A[20:25:53] Lou Netizen: Simon: quite possibly. In AWS cases we were able to identify amazon security appliances being winky. The others…dunno. But they're all IP blocks outside SL.
A[20:26:21] Lou Netizen: So the only way to "fix" communication on an impacted region was a region restart, e.g. moving it to a new IP.
A[20:27:17] Rex Cronon: maybe those places have a new security in place to protect from ddos attacks?
A[20:27:32] Rex Cronon: and its overly protective
A[20:28:05] Lou Netizen: we have no insight into the LL side, but we were able to get AWS to confirm they had put some blocks in place, none were permanent. They wouldn't tell us more though.
A[20:28:27] Lou Netizen: it really just looks like false positives on their end
A[20:28:56] Lou Netizen: With Linode, we think it was a tier 3 issue, but couldn't get enough data
A[20:29:03] Simon Linden: it sounds like something was going on, possibly outside of what you were doing, that got the source IP (our server) blacklisted. There certainly are griefer scripts that might trigger that
A[20:29:37] Lou Netizen: /me nods. My though was something like that, and then the region we test on coming up on one of those IPs days/weeks later or similar
A[20:29:46] Lou Netizen: in any case, it does not appear to be anything systematic
A[20:29:55] Qie Niangao: apropos nothing in particular: A scripting forums thread speculates on prospects, pros & cons of 128K script memory limit, perhaps as a Premium benefit, perhaps somehow piggybacked on Experiences. Any chance such a thing might happen someday, or is it just a pipe dream?
O[20:30:19] Meeter/77e48a07-06f1-4ae4-9d33-6eab4d445e2d: Timecheck : User Group is half over
A[20:31:11] Rex Cronon: if even microsoft decided that an OS needs more than 1mb memory:)
A[20:31:41] Simon Linden: I can give the usual disclaimer about not promising any features and future work Qie, but it's something that is requested and we've discussed it a bunch internally
A[20:32:05] animats Resident: Unless scripts move out of the main thread on servers, more script activity seems undesirable.
A[20:32:19] Simon Linden: being a Premium benefit would be great, but then if you drop back to regular things get complicated and bad
A[20:32:20] Qie Niangao: ... and the discussions haven't yet dismissed it totally out-of-hand?
A[20:32:21] Rex Cronon: u run them locally:)
A[20:32:41] animats Resident: If your script needs to do that much, connect to an external server.
A[20:33:26] Simon Linden: not totally out-of-hand, no .... we realize it's needed. After all, we're coders too so I know it's frustrating trying to make something interesting and hitting that size limit
A[20:33:30] Lou Netizen: depeends on the project. I've worked on things that rely heavily on external servers, but need a dozen or more scripts just to manage inworld components.
A[20:33:31] Qie Niangao: well, in fact it's a size/processing trade-off, often. Lots of scripts out there burning cycles to share memory across scripts.
A[20:34:09] Simon Linden: Right ... some of them, like group subscribos, end up using scripts as a database
A[20:34:14] Qie Niangao: Thanks Simon. I wasn't expecting it was on anybody's plat at this point.
A[20:34:19] Qie Niangao: *plate
A[20:35:15] animats Resident: Maybe divide scripts into two groups - 1) can affect the world, run on main thread, time limited, and 2) can't affect the world, run off main thread, more resources.
A[20:35:21] Simon Linden: script size is a huge factor in region crossings and TP issues, so maybe if we could nail it down to stuff that doesn't move around the grid it would be less scary
A[20:35:34] Simon Linden: (pure speculation and brainstorming)
A[20:36:03] Qie Niangao: ah, unattached only, that would actually be a win... uh, well, except for the heavy-HUD builders, I guess
A[20:36:26] Lou Netizen: yeah, there are people who wouldn't benefit from that, but others who cerrtainly would
A[20:36:28] Simon Linden: right, I'm sure HUDs would want it too
A[20:36:43] Qie Niangao: if only there were an attachment tax
A[20:36:45] Simon Linden: so there may be small steps possible there
A[20:38:28] Qie Niangao: oh, if there were a punitive, confiscatory tax on NO-MOD attachments, it would make my day
A[20:38:37] Lucia Nightfire: speaking of appliers, can we unbundle PRIM_TEXTURE and its normal and spec params, heh
A[20:39:08] Simon Linden: I think that's in a feature request, right?
A[20:39:19] animats Resident: Many users would benefit from a clear guide on how to set up an external server to talk to SL. One good wiki article.
A[20:39:25] Lucia Nightfire: its part of SCR-4 iirc
A[20:40:18] Simon Linden: That would be good, Joe. A huge part of that is how/where that external server is hosted (and what tech it runs on). Does anyone have suggestions on what would be a good example?
A[20:40:28] Lucia Nightfire: but PRIM_TEXTURE PRIM_NORMAL and PRIM_SPECULAR have a permissions penalty with texture UUID in limited perms containers, hence the need for higher priority with those params
A[20:40:44] Rex Cronon: in what programming language joe? php? asp?...
A[20:40:50] animats Resident: Me, I have a server on Dreamhost written in Go.
A[20:41:32] Simon Linden: Oh just to torment you, I want to say I went through all the feature requests and llGetEnv() and llGetObjectDetails() and gathered them together to review and rank. That's as far as I got, however
A[20:41:33] Rex Cronon: i am using php for my chatlog
A[20:41:38] Lou Netizen: I've used several different setups; I think it's pretty common for people to use "standard" hosting setups with a small selection of scripting languages available, typically php, perl, python, maybe golang
A[20:42:30] animats Resident: It's not that hard for anyone who's set up a web server. But the documentation needs work. I had to discover what all those X-headers did, for example.
A[20:42:35] Lou Netizen: but I know people using Raspberry Pi's on their home networks to power simple things ;)
A[20:42:50] Simon Linden: yeah we don't want to send time describing how to set up the servers themselves really but showing a basic "hello" php or python server and how LSL hits it might be helpful
A[20:43:14] Lou Netizen: out of curiosity, what was the X-Header issue?
A[20:43:24] Simon Linden: lol Lou - I have a raspberry pi with a SSD in my house as an extra spare server
A[20:43:28] Lou Netizen: heh
A[20:43:39] Simon Linden: did that fix itself?
A[20:43:55] animats Resident: When SL makes an HTTP request ot the outside world, it adds some HTTP headers which begin "X-". They have useful stuff like the UUID of the requesting object.
A[20:44:01] Lou Netizen: /me nods
A[20:44:05] Rex Cronon: u have a pie server:) does it serve hot pie:)
A[20:44:28] Simon Linden: Right, that one was sending the older version of an account name after they had changed it
A[20:44:38] Simon Linden: or Linden changed it for them, I mean
A[20:44:56] Lou Netizen: oh, right
A[20:45:12] Lou Netizen: /me must be getting old, I was here for that
A[20:45:16] Simon Linden: I looked at the code and it was pretty simple, the script was just fetching a name and using it.
A[20:45:39] Rex Cronon: i had to print out all the headers sent and received to make sense of things
A[20:45:45] Simon Linden: So we were guessing it was a stale cache or something ... if it went away, that was probably it. Maybe a restart took care of it
A[20:46:21] Simon Linden: I don't think we actually changed anything with that case
A[20:47:38] Rex Cronon: there is also at least on json lsl function that can be used 4 communication with outside server
A[20:47:45] Rex Cronon: at least one*
A[20:48:08] Lou Netizen: LSL has several JSON support functions
A[20:48:25] Lou Netizen: some people even use them for non-external stuff
A[20:48:26] Simon Linden: right, that was the whole reason for JSON support - getting data in and out of SL
A[20:48:43] animats Resident: Yes, I've used JSON for inter-script communication.
A[20:48:50] Lou Netizen: same, Joe
A[20:48:50] Rider Linden: Is there a JIRA that describes the issue?
A[20:51:46] Lou Netizen: I can't find one but my JIRA fu is weak
A[20:52:09] Rex Cronon: lsl could be really useful if it became an oop language...
A[20:52:12] animats Resident: Whirly isn't here this week.
A[20:52:25] Rex Cronon: or use mono...
A[20:52:32] Simon Linden: we're more likely to switch to a new language than try to extend LSL
A[20:52:43] animats Resident: It does use mono.
A[20:53:09] Rex Cronon: i mean instead of lsl we use mono for scripting
A[21:09:29] Rex Cronon: u don't go to that meeting?
A[21:11:03] Rex Cronon: thank u:)
A[21:11:23] Jenna Felton: you are welcome Rex :) and no, i go offline
A[21:11:33] Jenna Felton: i visit only the SSUG and SBUG
A[21:11:41] Rex Cronon: ok
A[21:11:43] Jenna Felton: have fun and good time :)
A[21:11:48] Rex Cronon: u 2
A[21:11:50] Rex Cronon: thank u:)
A[21:11:55] Jenna Felton: thanks :)
A[22:54:08] Minuet Voir: Hello Nal and Yuzuru
A[23:00:03] Nalates Urriah: Hi Minuet & Yuzuru. Had to relog. Things were not working.
A[23:01:04] Minuet Voir: better now?
A[23:01:16] Nalates Urriah: Yes, thank you
A[23:02:57] Rex Cronon: hi everybody
A[23:03:18] Nalates Urriah: Hi Rex
A[23:03:32] Jenna Felton: hello All :)
A[23:03:57] arton Rotaru: Gunaaaabend
A[23:04:06] Nalates Urriah: Hi Arton
A[23:04:12] Minuet Voir: Hello Jenna and Bunneh
A[23:04:20] Rex Cronon: hi nal
A[23:04:25] Minuet Voir: Hi Rex
A[23:04:36] Rex Cronon: hi jenna
A[23:04:41] Rex Cronon: hi arton
A[23:04:44] Rex Cronon: hi minuet
A[23:05:07] arton Rotaru: Lindens seem to be busy
A[23:05:11] Rex Cronon: we r missing somethingvery important
A[23:05:46] Rex Cronon: something called a linden. itsa a mythical creature:) very hard to find:)
A[23:06:29] Jenna Felton: Rex, could you extend your chat loger a way that it can remove log lines older than a week or so? This way we could always see the log of the last week and the used memory would be not too big so you must not clean it completelly?
A[23:06:41] Jenna Felton: hello Whirly :)
A[23:07:11] Whirly Fizzle: Hiya :)
A[23:07:17] Jenna Felton: (just relized you'll have to clean the log soon, Rex :))
A[23:07:46] Rex Cronon: u want me to keep the last week log too?
A[23:07:57] Rex Cronon: hi whirly
A[23:08:21] Jenna Felton: sometimes the internet is gone for a few days and when meanwhile you cleaned the log, its gone
A[23:08:35] Jenna Felton: but more than a week makes probably not much sence
A[23:08:42] arton Rotaru: where does the internet go
A[23:09:01] Jenna Felton: it decides to go for holidays, arton :)
A[23:09:03] Nalates Urriah: Have you thought of posting the log in the SL Forum?
A[23:09:25] Rex Cronon: what do u mean nal?
A[23:09:39] arton Rotaru: isn't that aginst the guidelines?
A[23:10:01] Rex Cronon: what guidelines?
A[23:10:05] Nalates Urriah: ?... Post a copy in the forum?
A[23:10:08] Jenna Felton: hmm, when maybe always the last 1200 lines remain, there are 3 meeting logs available
A[23:10:16] arton Rotaru: community Second Life blah blub
A[23:10:26] Nalates Urriah: Not for public UG meetings
A[23:10:33] arton Rotaru: okay
A[23:11:08] Rex Cronon: anybody can copy it to the forum...
A[23:11:16] arton Rotaru: any of you guys watched the twitch vid of the sansar meeting with Ebbe?
A[23:11:17] Jenna Felton: i think public chat is allowed to be posted. and the UG are public meetings
A[23:11:25] Minuet Voir: Occasionally I post bits and pieces
A[23:11:40] Nalates Urriah: THe Lindens used to post chat logs.
A[23:11:50] Rex Cronon: used to. right
A[23:11:57] Jenna Felton: yes, used to :)
A[23:12:03] Minuet Voir: Yes, I was going to do that, even got permission. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but meh
A[23:12:21] Nalates Urriah: It becomes work
A[23:12:23] Rex Cronon: actually it becomes work. lol